Leading Voices

>>Intro This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big and so do we. And our Leading Voices series. Our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities and commercial real estate while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights, and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new, sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth, and deliver on long term outcomes. 

>>Donnie Johnson Welcome everyone. My name is Donnie Johnson. I'm the Development Officer Leader for the Markets Division within Corporate Investment Banking at Wells Fargo. It is a thrill to be invited back to co-host the Leading Voices podcast with my good friend Frank Van Buren, and I'm very excited to be a part of this particular episode, because today's topic is one that's near and dear to me personally. Today we're going to discuss an amazing new education and development opportunity targeted at first generation college students and its aptly named Project First Gen. We got a very special guest today that's going to tell us all the details about Project First Gen. But before we introduce our guest, I want to make sure that I bring in my co-host, Frank Van Buren, to say hello, Frank, welcome to the show. 

>> Frank Van Buren It's good to be back. Donnie, this is our second podcast and I must say, the first podcast was so much fun. I was hoping that we would do this sooner rather than later, so it's good to be back. I appreciate this topic today. It's near and dear to my heart, also. I think I'm somewhat of a first generation in that my father attended college, but ended up leaving Howard University to go join the war effort in World War II and never went back to college. So my brother and I were actually the first to graduate college. He's a couple years ahead of me, so I do consider this to be a personal connection also, but more importantly, it's one that is going to impact so many lives in a positive way. As you mentioned, I'm your co-host on this show, but also I'm your peer is a Development Officer Leader on the banking side. Really excited to introduce our next guest, the main star of the show today, Cam Campbell is an absolute star on the rise, and we've been so lucky to have him on the banking platform. And of course, Donnie, he was with you on the markets platform before, joining the banking side. And Cam has come up with an absolutely game changing idea. But let's just get started by allowing Cam to introduce himself. Tell us a little bit about his background. 

>> Cameron Campbell Thank you for having me. This is really, really exciting. Something that you both don't know is, is that one of my goals as a professional has been to get on a podcast. So I'm really excited to check this off of one of my big goal list. And it just, I'm thrilled to talk about this program that we have been working on for such a long time, and really feel privileged to see it come to fruition and allow so many students across the country to engage in such a purposeful way. But maybe just to introduce myself to the audience here. Cam Campbell, Development fficer for Mid Cap Investment Banking and Sustainable Finance and Advisory. I'm based out of New York, but have been with the business for ten years, and a large part of that was actually out of Charlotte, North Carolina. And as Frank noted originally was in markets where it's quite closely with Donnie as a development officer for the markets business before transitioning on to the banking side. So it's been an absolute pleasure to, not only get to engage and work with so many young minds across the markets platform, but I'm also transition on the banking side, and we have such defined support for so many of our young folks within the business out of New York. So excited to talk to you about the program itself, and maybe give some insight as to how we plan for it to be the game changer that Frank noted. 

>>Donnie Johnson Well, Cam, why don't we just get right into Project First Gen why don't you tell us about the Project First Gen and just give a brief overview, and then we'll get into some more specifics second. 

>> Cameron Campbell Sure. So Project First Gen is an educational program. It's slated to start on September the 25th. But the idea behind it is for sophomore college students to have the ability to learn about investment banking product servicing through this program over a course of eight weeks. It is aimed at really highlighting three of our distinct businesses within the corporate investment bank, which is investment banking and corporate banking, commercial real estate, and of course our markets division. Why it's called Project First Gen is that it's being marketed. To first generation college students. Those are individuals who are the first in their immediate family to attend a four year university. And that accounts for about 50% of the current student body. If you look at the demographics of the United States and those that are attending a four year university, at least 50% self-identify as first generation. And I think what we can attest to is all development officers within our respective businesses is that our first generation students lack an ability to have the access of those that have a connection, or have a relationship with individuals that work within high finance or have some form of connection to the industry. And so because of that, it makes it difficult, particularly in a recruiting cycle that starts in their second semester of their sophomore year, to be able to thoughtfully discuss and talk through some of the products and services that they should have a connection to in order to kind of showcase a readiness for an internship or full time employment opportunity. And so really, as I was thinking through how we could be supportive, I really try to embrace what we do within Wells Fargo, which is to focus on education, to focus on how do we develop individuals by giving them the tools that they need, and then by giving them those tools, our employees are then able to capitalize on the goals that they have by using them. And so this program is really aimed at taking a segment of the population in particular, that we know don't typically have the access to our industry that we would like, and it just educates them on those products so that they can hopefully have their interests sparked, do some further research, get engaged more into things that really align with them, and then hopefully make some really thoughtful decisions as they go into a recruiting process. I think that the other thing that we hope this program does is, is that many young people today, I think, have heard the term investment banking, or maybe young people that are considering a career, maybe that's a line of commercial real estate already have like this and, you know, incredible passion for real estate in and of itself. But for some of the individuals of they maybe haven't heard of different coverage teams that are within those businesses. I think a lot of times they haven't really understood what sells within the markets business as well. And so what we expect from folks being educated just around the platform in this kind of a program is that it opens their minds as to what actually is available to them, and really through the education, they're then able to understand the opportunity that really aligns with their interest. It really aligns with their cultural preferences and identity. Because, one of the things I usually tell folks is they're thinking about a career within our businesses, is that an investment banking is widely different than many of the commercial real estate businesses. So oftentimes when you have a young person that's just figuring out where they may have an interest, one of the first things that they start to identify is the cultural elements associated with being on a particular desk within sales and trading, or within a particular coverage group within investment banking. So our goal through this is purely education and hopefully through that education, it sparks enlightenment and some really purposeful action on their parts. 

>> Frank Van Buren That's really good stuff. Cam, and you mentioned the word education so many times in that last section that I want to go back and maybe uncover something about your personal story that others don't know, and that is that you've had your own time period where you are an educator and of course, your family members. You have had a significant background in education also. In fact, the first time I learned that you were a teacher before you got into the finance business is when I looked at your handwriting and I made a comment about, wow, you have absolutely fantastic handwriting, and you spoke about your mother and her influence on you. We love stories in these podcasts. Tell us a little story about your educational connection, maybe some of your early experiences and how that played into your passion for this amazing project. 

>> Cameron Campbell I grew up in rural Virginia, just south of Richmond in a town called Prince George. It's connected to a military base, and a lot of my family is actually military aligned as well. But I grew up in public school. You know, we had one high school, one middle school and elementary school. And one of the things that I was blessed with, and it's one of the things that I'm so proud of, to live in a country like the United States is the access to a really amazing educational experience. My parents could not afford to send us just anywhere, and so being able to have incredible teachers and every single grade level and experience was really impactful. When I went to university, I went to Virginia Tech and studied. political science, philosophy and history. I was trying to consider how I could give back before either pursuing a higher level of degree or going into maybe a more professional arena. Eventually. And so it's funny when you put things into the universe, it's really curious how it will respond. I just so happened to have been talking to a friend of mine about feeling this energy, this will, to really lean in and give back before I maybe extended or thought about my future from a professional sense. And as I was leaving that conversation, I had someone like calling my name, and I turned around and there's this woman running after me, and I had no idea who she was. I was like, I don't know how she knows me. She was like, hey, I've heard about you. I run a program through Teach for America. You should consider applying. And I didn't really know too much about the organization at the time, but their mission as I started to do some research is to discontinue educational inequity within our country. Teachers, of course, are underpaid, undervalued, and it is very difficult to find teachers that have the ability and the understanding of where that need is. And so what teach for America does, or at least was doing when I joined the organization, was put teachers in high need areas and said that brought me to Charlotte, North Carolina post-grad, where I taught eighth and ninth grade math. And I usually tell folks that I - and this is completely true - I learned more in those two years of teaching math than I ever did in those four years of undergrad, and I certainly learned more from those kids than I ever taught them. It was a transformational experience. It's something that I still reflect on constantly, and really the thing that sealed the deal for me, why I wanted to do it is there's a quote by Maya Angelou that goes, when you learn, teach, when you get, give. And her philosophy was always that we are best when we're teachers and it's so true. And when I moved into our Corporate and Investment Bank at Wells, I thought that that went away. I thought that my opportunity to be a part of folks lives in such a meaningful way was maybe lost, and I could not have been more wrong. When I first started working at Wells, I think three months in I was already teaching. I taught in so many different ways. Now, do I have a classroom? No. But what I do have is support. I have the ability to connect them to opportunities in ways that they maybe didn't know about before. And I have the privilege of working with so many talented individuals who are so knowledgeable across product lines and really being of assistance in helping us grow and develop things further. In essence, what's been special is, is that what brought me to the classroom, which was, you know, this experience as a rural kid in southern Virginia ends up still today being such a major driver for the work that I do and for what I hope is a continuously successful career. 

>>Donnie Johnson I really appreciate that story, and it is abundantly clear that teaching is a part of of who you are. It's been a component both in your prior financial industry experience, and it's also a huge component of your role as a development officer. So I can sort of see where some of that inspiration for a project first Gen would have come from. But let's talk about what we feel like the students are going to get from Project First Gen. You talked about what some of the benefits could be early, but give me a little bit more detail on what you expect these students are going to participate in this program, are going to get from it. 

>> Cameron Campbell So, Donny, you bring up a really good point as it relates to what students will experience. So over the eight weeks, we are going to spotlight each of our distinct businesses. So again, that's investment in corporate banking. That is commercial real estate and it's markets. And each of those businesses or groups are going to have two sessions. So two weeks of content. And in the first session each of those businesses are really going to be spotlighting the core products and services that are affiliated with their business. So for investment banking, for example, we're going to delve into a bit of M&A structuring. We're going to give you an idea around how we serve clients that need access to capital and connect them with individuals that have that capital that they're looking for. We're going to provide some details on how we advise or how we provide insights to what our clients need information on in order to make the best decisions for their companies. It is purely industry aligned. So the content that students will have the ability to hear about or learn from really can be applied to any investment bank. Our goal is again to be educationally focused for this. And so that is really an important feature because I think some folks that may be considering joining Project First Gen may feel like, well, I love Wells Fargo and yes, I want to learn through this, but am I just going to be learning about what happens at Wells Fargo? And I think that the great element that's really the hallmark of the program is, is that all of the content that's being shared is really content that could be applied to any business that has our structure. So that's really the first session, right? Going into that product in that service, the second session that each of their businesses are going to take is much more of an application approach. We're inviting senior bankers and some junior bankers as well, to give you insight as to how those products actually work in the day to day. To give you also some insights as to what their journey has been like. One of the things that's extremely important, I think, for anyone considering a career is to hear about other individuals why's. Yeah. Why did they get involved? How how did they develop and grow? And what they perhaps thought this experience about being in a corporate and investment bank was going to be compared to what it actually is, and so we look forward for that to be an even more interactive session for folks to participate in. Because, again, I think that participants being able to identify and connect with those individuals that are actively participating in those products and services is really a great way to, again, understand where that interest could lie. And then the program closes off with a presentation with our early careers business, which is really aligned to recruiting and thinking through of opportunities that could become available. We're also going to use that session to talk through, like, how do you thoughtfully network? How do you maybe consider highlighting things in your resume? One of the things that a lot of young people that I speak with on a consistent basis are always wondering, how do I differentiate my resume from others? And so we look forward to just sharing some simple tips that we think really go the extra mile when folks are trying to step out and kind of align themselves to their interest a lot more with various different organizations that they have applied to. The other element that I'll say is, is that we are going to have a kickoff to the first session on the 25th is really just to highlight the program, to give some stronger insights to the full curriculum. It's going to be presented by our Chief Development and Engagement officer, which is Troy Keane. If you haven't heard him speak, prepare to have your life change because he's he's just one of the most dynamic individuals that I think that I've ever met. And so I'm just excited for all of our participants to really get to hear his wisdom and his insights, because I think that ultimately, that's really the big piece here that we're excited for folks to experience outside of maybe sort of industry aligned content and some insight on, on some of our bankers is just to hear the wisdom from so many individuals who are really at the top of the industry, really doing incredible transformation across the business. 

>> Frank Van Buren I think we've neglected a really big point in talking about the program, and that is to really understand the genesis of it. How did this get started as a concept? How were you supported along the process? Because as I look at this fantastic program that we have now created that we're going to roll out shortly, and who's going to benefit the young people across the country? How did it get started and what were the pillars of support? 

>> Cameron Campbell Great question. So really this got started by our early talent. So we have a ton of internal. A new analyst to join all the time. And I think that as a manager of of a lot of junior bankers, I'm always asking for feedback on how we can be better, how we can serve more, how we can think ahead. And one of the elements of feedback that we got was like. First of all, the recruiting process is extremely early. So people have just finished their freshman year, they've just completed their first semester in their sophomore year, and they're already applying for their junior internship. It's like way too much, too quick for some folks. And I think that what I've consistently heard is, is that I wish I just knew more earlier, before I had to make some decisions so that kind of like, got something churning in my mind, that really feels like an educational opportunity. Like, how do I get folks informed about what is available to them earlier? The other thing that we've, you know, as a business, have been talking about with trying to create more equity across the board, equity, meaning how do I give everyone the same access to opportunity so that they can all compete at the same levels? I think that we hear from folks all the time, like, I just wish I would have known about this. I wish I would have had more of an understanding of what this meant. It so again, was another element of what can we be doing better from an educational perspective. And so I had been talking this to school leaders from at Vanderbilt, at Johnson C, Smith University at Virginia Tech, my alma mater, and several others, and started to also hear like, you know, one of the businesses I used to cover and work quite strongly with is Structured Products Investment Banking Team or Structured Products Group, which is in markets. And every single time I would say the word structured products to a young person, they'd be like, I've never heard of that before. Or they'd like shake, and nod like they've heard about it, but they had never heard about a structured product before. So it was fun getting to talk to them about it. But I kept also thinking through, like, I wish that this was a part of curriculum. And so when I started to meet with a lot of school leaders, they felt, well, you have the experts, you have the individuals actually doing this work. We would love to have them come and talk. We would love to have them connect with our students and really get that experience. And so as I started to have more defined meetings and think through like, is this a course that a particular university, is this something that we organize as a small group session, like how do we make this work? I started to have discussions with the development officers throughout our organization. So of course you, Frank and Donnie, as well as Janelle in Commercial Real Estate and the full development officer community, and also started talking to some senior bankers across the platform. And the idea kind of sparked that this should just be an educational experience that we run. We already train all of our employees that on board with us around these products and services. We know that the content that we're sharing isn't specific to our business, it's industry. It's not bespoke to Wells Fargo. It's it's industry wide. And so for me, that just meant we've got to build something that meets that need, that fully covers the products and services that could be really insightful for them. And so that's where it got started, where it started to get really focused, such as with first generation college students, is through research. So really thinking through how do we ensure that we're meeting those that have the most need for this kind of a program. And so that's when it started to build into first generation. And then when we looked at recruitment cycles and what area that would have benefited the most. It is sophomores, right? Of course, junior internship recruiting happens in the second semester of a sophomore year. And so we really felt like doing it in the first semester for sophomore students could be the most impactful. Now, of course, this program is still going to be open to individuals that maybe are at that junior and senior level who are just inquisitive and want to get to know more about what we do within our businesses. But the idea behind it was to serve those that have the biggest need and have the highest opportunity ahead of them. Where it's been so incredible and transformational has been in the continued partnership. So we at Wells Fargo have incredible teams of support with our marketing business, with our human resources organization, with our communications teams. And so one of the fun things is, is when you bring up first generation, how many people identify as that. And so it's an immediate feeling of being seen. I've gotten to present this program to so many different bankers and leaders across our platform, and their immediate response is, I would have loved to have been a part of this as a student. Like, this is amazing. And I've also had some people say, I can't wait to be a part of this because I've got so many questions, I've got so many things I'd want to learn. And so of course, when you spark passion from someone, you spark investment, you get individuals committed. And so what we built here and what we aim to execute on starting September 25th, is just a wonderful consortium of insights, of wonderfully content that's been put together from the website to the videos that will be used from a marketing perspective, to ongoing strategies of how we plan to ensure that those that participate are having a really connected experience, despite it being through a virtual platform, and also ensuring that, yes, we're going to serve a thousand students in this program, but we're making sure that every single person that's invited to participate has an ability to connect with a junior banker or an individual within our organization as they see fit. That, to me, is the most special element that we're also adding on there is that connectivity to our organization and business, but we're still in the thick of executing on this. And so I'm really pleased to see where we have come from. But when I tell you that there's still so much in the works that are is in development, it's just eye opening and exciting to be able to to share and can't wait for people to see it. 

>> Frank Van Buren Hey Cam, let me jump in because you mentioned the 1000 person limit, which is a very big number and quite a few lives will impact. But I'm sure that our level of interest, the demand is going to be larger than that. What tips or suggestions do you have for folks who want to be part of this? But just because of a limited space, would not be able to participate in the live portion? Are there other tools or resources available for those folks? 

>> Cameron Campbell Absolutely. And we thought through that. Right. And a lot of the philosophy behind the thousand is really over constraints of a virtual network in a lot of different ways. And of course, because we want to make sure that we have an audience that can still have that interactivity. But because that first session really is the meat and potatoes of the content, we have planned to pre-record that session. So all of our development office leaders that are going to be a part of this or actually going to before that live session, record the first session. And so what we're going to do post this program is share it. Why that's important is that no matter if you make it into the program or not, you're still going to have access to all the information that's shared in that first session that we believe is essential for folks to absorb and hear from, in order to have a better understanding on where they can have interest, and also to hopefully spark or ignite their interest further in a particular area of product and service. The other piece is, is that by just even submitting your interest, that connects with our early careers team. And so we're going to do our best to ensure that every single person that has noted that they have an interest here, that they hear and are communicated with on opportunities for employment, whether it's through an internship or a full time opportunity as well. And we consistently within our organization have information sessions and interactive opportunities that hopefully are going to, you know, really serve those individuals as well that maybe weren't able to get into the program. So I think that the one strong element that I will say is, is that everyone's going to have access to this content that's really important for them to kind of determine where they may have further interest, and everyone is still going to have the potential to engage with this further, as our early careers team continues to roll out different engagement opportunities, publicize or share what's going on from an internship perspective, and of course, let folks know about full time opportunities as well. 

>>Donnie Johnson You just mentioned something pretty interesting. So you said continual engagement. You're first generation college student, and so you can speak to that experience as well as anyone besides some of the more technical expertise that this program will provide. Can you speak to some of the other challenges that first generation college students may face that you feel like this program will address either now or in the future? 

>> Cameron Campbell Absolutely. When I tell people what it is that we do for a living, what is an investment banker do? What is a trader do? We are relationship managers because it takes trust in order for us to execute and do our jobs. And so the connections that our bankers make and the relationships that they. Have allow our business to prosper and continue. And why I bring that up is, is that so much of what happens in the recruitment process is tied to building strong relationships. It's networking. It's learning and hearing from others who or what I like to say in the arena, doing the work, have their heads down and they're able to share their insights. And so what we hope also comes out of this program is how folks can be really thoughtful in that networking process so that they can have those connections. I think we're also looking to educate folks, or at least expose participants in how they can find their own voice. You know, authenticity is such a big element to what I work towards with the junior bankers and leaders that I get to work with, because I think when you step into a profession that you don't maybe have that much exposure within, or you're very junior within an organization, you're still trying to figure out how you can show up, trying to figure out your identity within that rite of passage that you're currently on. And so for me, what this program also does is it hopefully allows people to have a better understanding of who they are today and who they want to become. And through that understanding, hopefully that they can share that. Hopefully they can offer their perspective on where they are so that organizations that have opportunities can get a better sense for what that individual can bring to their businesses. I think that the other element that these kinds of programs do, especially when they're national, that I think are really important for first generation students, is to see other people like them, not only at the senior level, of course, within our business, but also their peers. And really, for me, when I first got started in this business, it was the people that were around me that helped make me feel that sense of belonging. And so when I'm excited about it, hopefully is for despite it being in a virtual setting for our participants to reach out to one another, to connect with one another, to try to get to know how they think, what they're pursuing. Because by having that connectivity, by having those relationships start to form, they're better able to again understand where their interests are, but also be of resource to others in hopes that it's helpful as they are on their journey and figuring things out. But for me, being first gen has been so helpful in building out this program because I'm constantly thinking about what is it that I wished I would have had a lot more. And I'm sure I know we've been talking about a lot of the content over the last several months as well. Like, what is it that we felt we were missing, or what are some insights that we believe would have been super beneficial for some of the individuals that we've interviewed before that if they had access to it could have been transformational. So I think that this program will continue to question that. We're going to continue to think through how can we be better? How can we meet more of the needs, how can we redefine? And that is the element to me of the essence of of someone who is first gen, always thinking about how can I grow, how can I be better, how can I meet my interests with the opportunities that I'm after? 

>>Donnie Johnson So I really appreciate that response. I think often times when people in college, students in particular, they see an opportunity like this and it says investment banking or it's financial services. Often they focus on some of the technical learnings that are in the program. And and they may shy away because they may not think that banking is for them or investment banking or financial services in particular. But I'm really glad that you highlighted that this program is really about personal professional development, and that takes many forms and are many attributes to the program that you have created that will benefit not only students interested in banking, but students really interested in any, any profession that they may go into post college. So thank you very much for that response. Frank? 

>> Frank Van Buren As we wrap up here, the most exciting piece of this to me is that Wells Fargo, the leaders of Wells Fargo, were taking a pioneering approach to giving back to the community in a form that is based on educating and making aware and providing access to these industries that are oftentimes intimidating to think about, especially from a first gen perspective. They have a lot of mystique associated with them. And of course, these jobs sometimes require very early understanding of how to get into the business. And this program is a direct application of real practical knowledge, targeted towards a community, a first gen community who will often times wouldn't have these early looks. So I'm really proud of Wells Fargo in our approach to it, helping first generation students understand the types of attributes that may go well with these particular roles within this industry. Having the knowledge of what skills they would build if they went down this particular path, or what are the practical tips that we can give them to thrive in interviews. And again, this is all about information and content that can be used broadly across the industry, not necessarily with Wells Fargo. So on behalf of Cam and Donnie and all Wells Fargo, I want to make sure that we thank everyone for joining in and listening to this podcast. We're extremely excited about what's in front of us. There are quite a few resources that are available. Our website is a good place to look, and then we'll also have quite a few advertisements marketing fliers that will be going out. Hopefully you can get a look at one of those and we'll get and looking forward to an exciting journey. Cam. Donnie, thanks for joining today. 

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>> Intro:
This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big, and so do we.  In our Leading Voices series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities, and commercial real estate, while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights, and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired, and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth, and deliver on long-term outcomes.

>>Danielle Squires:
Hello, I'm Danielle Squires, head of diverse segments for Corporate and Investment Bank at Wells Fargo. Joining me today are Vanessa McMichael, head of Corporate and Public Entity Strategies, and Mike Pugliese, senior economist. Today, we're going to be discussing our journey at Wells Fargo from starting as interns to leaders within our business. So I'm excited to be here today with both Vanessa and Mike as we all share the common bond of being interns. Interestingly enough, I started 25 years ago as an intern in the leveraged finance group. It was an interesting time and I spent three different summers here the first one in leveraged finance, the second one in interest rate, derivatives and foreign exchange, and the third one in global financial institution. So I have to tell you, I had a phenomenal experience learning all different parts of our bank. It's kind of one of those things that I recognize that I was lucky for as the internship process wasn't as common, dare I say, 25 years ago. But certainly we did have a cohort. I had the ability to learn from so many people. I had the ability to really dig in and ask questions. And I really, if you will, I'd say that I had a moment of clarity where I really learned what I wanted to do and where I thought I could be impactful. And that was pretty lucky for me as an intern. That's just a little bit of how I started and how I thought of my internships. Mike, can you summarize maybe a little bit about what you guys do here at the bank? And then also a little bit about starting as an intern?

>> Mike Pugliese:
Yeah, well, thanks, Danielle. First and foremost, you know, in terms of what I do. So I'm a senior economist with the economics team in CIB. And what we do is, you know, write research on the macro economy and then communicate it to clients. And that might be through written form, short reports, long reports. We have our own podcast. Ask Our Economists, a little plug there. We have YouTube videos,. We make media appearances right on CNBC, Bloomberg. Quoted in The Wall Street Journal, places like that, and then meeting with clients one on one in larger conference settings, you know, traveling across the U.S. virtually, you name it. Just trying to get our views out there on, you know, recession outlook, the Fed, inflation, commercial real estate, you name it. Right. And then, you know, my specific coverage space is U.S. economic policy. So think monetary policy and the stuff downstream of that, the Fed, inflation, labor markets and fiscal policy. What's going on in D.C., deficits, Treasury issuance, interest rates, that kind of thing. And so that's my space. Now, I go back to when I was an intern or looking for an internship. So for me, that was that was a decade ago. It was 2014 when I did the internship and I was an undergraduate at the University of Virginia, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had a lot of interests, but really no strong kind of, you know, I really want to be an ‘x’, right? Whatever that ‘x’ was. I liked economics. I was an econ major, I liked government and political science. I was a double major in that. I liked finance, business type things. So I was interviewing all over the place at the Fed and at, you know, kind of different private sector, type research places. And then what I found this role that Wells Fargo, I thought it was interesting. It was sitting at the intersection of a lot of my interest in economics and research and public policy in finance and I interviewed and took that internship and have been with Wells since, working for the econ team.

>>Danielle Squires:
I think that's fantastic, Mike, because at the end of the day, you had the ability to really learn what practically you could do with one your interests and two what you studied at the university, which is probably anything but at least seeing this. And I don't I don't think many people have the ability to intern in the economics group or department and so that worked out really well for both you and us. So excited about that. Vanessa, can you tell us a little bit about both what you do today and share with us a little thought about your being an intern?

>>Vanessa McMichael:
Yes. Thank you, Danielle. So, I sit in a group called Fixed Income Strategy. And as Danielle noted at the beginning of this conversation, I run our Corporate and Public Entity Strategy Group. So this term strategy is thrown around a lot at Wall Street firms. Every Wall Street firm has strategy groups, a variety of them. Our group is unique, not only unique resource here at Wells, but also on Wall Street, because we focus uniquely on corporate and public entity investors. So when you think about your everyday corporation, where you may be a consumer or the cities and states where you live, the schools that you are all going to or have attended, all of these organizations have what are called cash managers. So these are professionals within their organization who are in charge of making sure that the bills get paid on time and all the money that we're supposed to receive, we are receiving. And so in the midst of all of these cash decisions is often some decision around investing and investing in fixed income markets. And so because these professionals at these organizations wear many different hats in their roles as cash managers, my group comes in and we help them make sure that they are making the appropriate decisions for their respective organizations, because that's going to look very different depending on the type of organization it is. So your state, your cities, they have laws that determine which fixed income instruments they can invest in corporate clients depending on the industry and their cash flow cycles. So when they're receiving cash and when they have those cash disbursements can really dictate which instruments are going to be appropriate for them in fixed income markets. So our team steps in. We help provide a lay of the land when it comes to fixed income markets, which are deep and wide. And there's a lot of lingo used. We help educate. We help come up with trade ideas and strategies. In my role like Mike's, we get to do some media. In my role, I also get to speak at a lot of big conferences. So I think I have a really cool job because I get to do so many different things that I did not know was going to be a part of of my day job or my career before I accepted this role. I've been doing that now for a little over a decade. And prior to joining this team, the fixed income strategy team, I found this team through rotating. I was an MBA intern, so I was in business school. I actually started my career at Wachovia, which transitioned into Wells Fargo prior to business school. And then my summer between my first and second year of business school, I participated in the rotation program here on the trading floor, thought I wanted to be in a sales role, but spent some time with different desks, trading sales strategy and other areas of this floor and kind of stumbled into this role. So I had no idea that it existed. But I'm really grateful for that rotation program because had it not been for that program, I don't think I would have realized how many different career avenues there are here on the fixed income trading floor.

>>Danielle Squires:
You know, it was really interesting just to point out that all three of us were interns, but we were actually interns at different periods in our life. So I was an intern with, at that time, a minority internship service called Inroads. And I was an intern as a freshman right after my freshman year of college and then the following three summers. And then Mike, you were an intern going into your senior year, right, at UVA. That's right, an undergrad intern. But going into your senior year, which is it tends to be that traditional path and then also traditional. But at the graduate level, Vanessa, you were an MBA intern. And so I think that's really awesome that the three of us leaders today within our businesses came in through the various opportunities and it doesn't make a difference which one you came in. We had the ability to succeed. So it was really interesting hearing some of that. One of the things that I'm excited about is how our group and diverse segments gets to work with each one of you and your groups. So in diverse segments, we seek to maximize positive outcomes for our diverse clients, diverse owned and diverse led in everything that they do with us. We do that by granting greater access to the capital markets, creating connectivity points where there aren't any, and creating new products that we can put into the market, one of which we did with Vanessa's group in CPE. So with that, our team is segmented and works with each one of our businesses. So we do that for our clients in the markets business. We do it in the banking business and we do it with our commercial real estate clients. In addition to the work that we do with our Minority Depository Institutions. It really is awesome connectivity between all of our groups. In addition to all the wonderful diverse segment pieces that the economics team puts out every year celebrating our Heritage Months and the different diversity dimensions and those groups specific GDP output. Right, and the work in each one of those communities. So awesome love how again connected at various points in time as interns and connected today in the work that we do so fantastic. You know interestingly as well, from a journey perspective, we all learn things. So it would be really awesome to hear Vanessa and Mike. What have you learned along your journey from intern to leader? And Mike, we'll start with you.

>> Mike Pugliese:
Yeah, well, a lot. Learning a lot and still learning a lot across the journey I've had, I guess I'll throw a handful of out there in terms of things that I think have been most impactful, at least for me. You know, one is become an expert in your space, whatever your space is. You know, I feel like I've done my best to try to learn my area inside out, upside down, forwards and backwards. And I think that that can be really rewarding no matter what you're doing. And when at least I know I find someone else who knows their space really well and I come to them with questions and they're talking or they're telling me you can hear the passion in their voice about it. I just think to myself, what a great resource this person is on whatever they are, right? Sales, trading strategy, you name it, right? There's so many experts in their fields in this firm and outside of it. And so those are great resources. Another one I think I've learned is how important communication is. You can be super bright, super hard working, have all these great ideas about how to change the firm, change the world, right? But if you can't communicate those ideas, it can get lost in the mix. We're all busy. We've got a lot going on, a lot of podcast material we're consuming, right? And you need to be able to get that point across and, you know, do it concisely, do it well. I think another one is get to know the broader organization. You know, at a big place like Wells, there are so many people, so many lines of business, so many people doing different things. And I think it's easy to just get, you know, siloed off a little bit. You know, the economics team, as an example, is, you know, a dozen or so people give or take a little in a much, much broader pond within CIB, which in and of itself is a much, you know, kind of one one piece of of a much larger organization. And I found it really rewarding and really helpful as I've gotten to know both of you in terms of what do you do, how can we help you? What can we do to be helpful? You know, you and I, Vanessa, have worked on media stuff. Danielle, you just talked about some of the ways our groups have interacted. And and I personally think that's been really rewarding for me in my career. Maybe two more real quick. Everyone has different skill sets. There are things that I think I'm really strong at and there are other things that, I can do well. But there are other people that I think can do it stronger than me and vice versa, right? Whatever that might be across the lines of duties that we have. And I think bringing them together in a team format is what makes you strongest, right? I promise I won't use too many econ terms, but the comparative advantage there, right. Find your comparative advantage within your team and and exploit it. And then the last one is just, you know, a little bit different. But you just be empathetic. You never know what people are going through. These are tough jobs. They can be stressful. It's challenging It's hard to forecast for a $30 trillion U.S. economy's going you know, it's hard when you've got competing demands on your time, both personally and professionally and I think it's always important that just take a step back sometimes and try to be empathetic and say, All right, what's the thing I'm trying to solve here? What's the other person trying to do to help me or how I'm trying to help them? What else might they be going through and just try to keep that empathy, front forward at all times when you're trying to do everything else that that these kind of jobs demand.

>>Danielle Squires:
I appreciate that, Mike. And I'm just going to repeat for our listeners these four great things that you said become a reliable expert in your space. Focus on that. Get to know the broader organization. Everyone has different skill sets, so learn how to optimize all of them and then be empathetic which by far is such an encompassing rule in everything we do. I appreciate that, Mike, great, great four points. Vanessa. 

>>Vanessa McMichael:
Well, those are really good points. So ditto agree with them all. But if I, if I were going to add a few to the list, one thing that I talked about in my introduction, Danielle, was the fact that the group that I'm in right now, I know I said I think I have a really cool job and I really do. I think the job that I'm in right now is such a a really good fit for me. And it was interesting, Danielle, to hear yours, because as long as I've known you at the beginning, I didn't realize you were in so many groups here at Wells. So I just learned something new about someone that I've known for over a decade, which was kind of cool. But I have been in this group for a long time and just grateful for the internship program that I literally stumbled into this group. So anyone coming into the summer this view is not only myopic to just the trading floor, but just understand that there's so many different roles here on the trading floor. Yes, we come to campus and we talk to you about the difference between sales and trading, and then we ask you to pick an interview track, right. Sales or trading. But there's so many other careers here on this floor that help this floor run every day. And that's true across the entire firm. So one thing that I just encourage interns is if you you come on the trading floor, you realize that one particular role is not for you. There's probably something out there for you. And if it's not here in floor, it's probably here at the bank. This is kind of my my second point that I want to highlight here is it's really easy to come in to any of the line of businesses that we are describing here today and get a bad case of FOMO. Fear of missing out. Every role is not for everyone. Every group is not for everyone. Everyone is really good at something, though. And so just just stay encouraged to find a path that is right for you and not to catch FOMO and try to do what you see other people doing. There's a lot going on at this bank there's bound to be a role that's yours. Right. And a good fit for you. Moreover, you have to show up every single day. So I feel like we talk when we're in recruitment, the recruiting process. We talk a lot how hard you have to work as an analyst, or particularly on the investment banking side, you have to work equally as hard in sales and trading side in in the market side on economics team as well. But don't be fooled that that hard work is over. Once you get that first promotion to associate or once you get that next promotion to VP, it has felt like for me in my transition that every step in my career I'm working almost a little harder, but in a different way, right? So when you're an analyst, you're trying to get up to speed, learn the skills, but then as you as you grow in your career, you are now a thought generator, right? And you have to form partnerships across the bank. And there's a lot of things that go on behind the scenes every day that leaders have to do to help the teams run efficiently. So just know that you're going to show up every day and work hard regardless what role you're in and regardless of your title. Take care of yourself. So, Mike, I love that you pointed out the whole be empathetic. It's so important. But you know, what's interesting is I feel like there seems to be a greater realization that we're all humans post-COVID. Right. And so this this idea of being empathetic, it's certainly something you have to have as you transition into being a leader. But even coming in, that was such a good point. And equally as important, I think it's take remembering to take care of yourself because you can't give right and show up every day and work hard if you aren't taking care of yourself. And then lastly, another point I want to make in terms of just transitioning into a leader. And Danielle, I don't remember if you remember this, you might, but a while back when I first started as an associate, you encouraged me. We were on the Women's Network at that point and you encouraged me to volunteer to start a speed networking event that hadn't been done before, right? We didn't have a whole lot of details. But... 

>>Danielle Squires:
I do remember that. And I thank you for it. I do remember it. 

>>Vanessa McMichael:
So I bring this up because Danielle, who was a leader at that point and still is obviously, but encouraged me as someone, you know, new my career, new on the floor, get involved in the broader Wells Fargo. Don't come in every day and just be to have your head face down in your work. It's very important that we respond to our clients, right? That's our day job, number one. But as you grow into being a leader, you're giving back to your team, you're giving back to Wells Fargo. And so these are some of the things that that I just encourage you all to just keep in the back of your mind as well as you move from intern to first year analyst. Hopefully at some point in and beyond.

>>Danielle Squires:
I appreciate that Vanessa, I'm going to try to summarize it. This is a really big company and a big comprehensive place. There is something here for everyone. We just have to find it, find what you're passionate at and find what you're good at and where those two things intersect. And I think that dovetails into the idea that your path is your path alone, and that's something you learned along your journey. What's right for you? You will find your path. Show up each day. Hard work does not end once you begin your career and get promoted. Show up and work hard every day and then take care of yourself. And I think that's something we just have to say to everybody often that there's moments and places where you can find time to take care of yourself. You just have to actively make that a part of what's important to you. And I think we just have to say that often. So thank you, Vanessa. And of course, it's increasingly important to be a good Wells Fargo citizen and sort of look up, reach out as you grow and do more. Right. Don't just show up and get the work done first and foremost. Most importantly, deliver for our clients and for each other. And then look how you can do even more. So I appreciate that. So I agree with all of that. So the only other things that I'd say that I would add to that that I think I learned starting as an intern and through my journey is that we are never too young, too old, too inexperienced or experienced to learn and grow. So it's our job to continue learning. You kind of feel that as an intern, as you're getting used to the business, the markets experiencing it for the first time, but you should never forget that. Think of it as your job to learn the day you start as an intern and the day you start as an analyst and you get promoted every step along the way, you have to maintain that growth mindset. Stay curious. I was once told by a colleague when I was both an intern and in my first couple of years full time that you should just do the things that no one else wants to do, but they need to get done and do it with a smile. Knowing what's important for the business. You have to get those things done and be the person who's reliable to do them. And if you can do that as an intern, if you could do that as a first year, these are the things that I think differentiate both you and your willingness to be a great partner for the business. And then the other thing I did learn at a young age, and I'm thankful for it and I like to really share with everybody is that look, we're all human and we're going to make mistakes and we need to recognize them. We need to share them quickly. We need to solution around them with our team, with our managers, and we need to learn from them and then we need to move on. But it really starts with if you make a mistake, raise your hand and say something. And having a team that is committed to your growth in addition to the growth and well-being and caring for our clients, those two things are not mutually exclusive, and we do them here. And so to me, that was one of the biggest I would say things in my journey was really coming to know that we're all going to do great things. And occasionally, because we're human, we'll make mistakes. Don't run from them, don't hide them, stand up, work through them, and then move on and learn from them. So those were really important for my journey, I would say. And and I still think through them today. So one last question for the team. If you were to have some advice that someone shared with you early on, so direct advice that someone shared for you that was really impactful maybe about how you handle yourself, how you what your mindset is, but what's a good piece of advice that you can share with everyone today that you got early and continues to be impactful today?

>> Mike Pugliese:
Yeah. So I think I'll share maybe two pieces of advice that I got early on. The first one was be patient when solving a problem. This was something I think I struggled with a little bit as an intern, so I can remember being an intern. And I would get an assignment. And 60 minutes later, I would be, you know, at the shoulder of a senior analyst or an associate saying, Hey, can you guys help me figure this out? I'm stuck. And of course, there are times where maybe it's time sensitive or you do just have a question. But when you do it over and over, eventually advice I got was, listen, use this as an opportunity to learn to build your skill sets and lay a foundation that's going to pay dividends down the road where when you have the time to sort of play in the sandbox, struggle through it. And those struggles are going to be some of the most kind of, you know, deeply taken away lessons that you learn for later on as opposed to just having someone show you. And it's tough, right? You know, I think there's sort of a tendency to want to just take the shortest path, the shortcut, you know, getting something done. But that was advice I got was when you have the opportunity, when it's not time sensitive. Struggle through the problem and learn something rather than just, you know, taking a shortcut to get to the answer. The second one is get to know your fellow interns, the fellow members of your analyst class. And this is maybe a little bit cliche. It's something I feel like I heard as an intern. And of course, it was something I wanted to do. I wanted to make new friends and have a good time and have people to hang out with in a new city. I didn't know that well, but it really extends beyond that. You know, there are so many instances today where some of my former intern classmates, other members of my analyst class are now leaders in their own business line across CIB. And those leaders now are really valuable when it comes to solving problems, adding value. Maybe I'm working on a research project or I'm trying to figure something out and I go to what it was really a friend, but also a colleague and now a senior leader and say, Hey, you know, can someone on your team or can you help me sort that out? That's been really, really valuable. Of course, this is in addition to all the fun reasons to get to know your fellow interns and analysts. Right. You know, I've been in weddings from people I interned with. I still hang out with them when I've traveled for people who've left the firm relocated to different cities or still working for Wells in different cities. And of course, there are lots and lots of fun reasons to get to know the people that you're working with, but it really does extend beyond that. I think it's paid major dividends for me throughout my time here at Wells.

>>Danielle Squires:
Thank you, Mike. Vanessa, your thoughts?

>>Vanessa McMichael:
Okay. So maybe I'll just pick two as well. At the end of the day, you are you. You’re going to come here as an intern and you are going to introduce yourself to so many different people, Right. Not only folks in your intern class, but the individuals here on the desk. You're going to network because you've been told to network. And so you are going to have to repeat your story over and over and over again. So tell it well. You're the only person who can tell your story. Think about how to tell your story succinctly, right? Because there are moments when you're in front of someone and you literally only have a minute to get their attention. And then think about how you would then tell your story if you had a 20 minute coffee walk with someone right. But the end of the day, don't be scared to share your story because it's your story and yours alone and it matters. Secondly, in this piece of advice here is simple, but it's so timeless. Have a good attitude. It really does matter. You want to come in and be someone who speaks to as many people as possible, someone who when is spoken to is someone that other people want to speak to. And then even once you get outside of the internship program, right, and you join as an analyst or associate, again, having a good attitude is really important. 

>>Danielle Squires:
Well, I think that's great because following up on that piece, people have said never underestimate the strength and value of a strong smile and a warm good morning. The things that that can do to a team on any given day, you just don't even know. So I think that's even more important than most people talk about. So I appreciate that. Vanessa, I'm going to add two things really quickly. And one is in that confidence realm to be be confident in asking questions and don't be afraid to share your opinion. When you're in a room, you're in that room for a reason, right? So step up, ask the questions. If you don't understand something and don't be afraid to give an opinion. And then the other thing I think that I learned that was a really good piece of advice is the way I would say it, is that to be a relentless partner. Help find out where the answer lies. And if you do that, people will never stop calling you. I found that when I was given that advice, I was on a sales desk on the trading floor and people would call me for all sorts of things that actually didn't even pertain to CIB. But I would go on the system. I'd help track down where it was in payments, in WIM, in the COO world because I actually learned something too. But I was a really good partner to somebody else in the hopes that eventually they'll be a really good partner to both me and my team or other people. And it was really true. People still call to this day and the answer is never say no, it's not my job. Say let me help you find that answer if you can. And to me, that's been one of the best ways to stay connected with the organization. But I can't thank you both enough from sharing your story of being an intern to being the leader that you both are in your businesses today. It'll be fantastic to continue to watch you grow. And with that really big thank you to Vanessa McMichael, head of Corporate and Public Entity Strategies and Mike Pugliesi, senior economist. You guys are doing great things at Wells Fargo. And I hope and I should say we hope that today just gives a little bit of inspiration to our interns and all of our Wells Fargo employees. As you find your career path, think through some of the things that we've learned along the way and enjoyed sharing with you. So have a wonderful day. Thanks, everyone.

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>> Intro:
This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big, and so do we.  In our Leading Voices series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities, and commercial real estate, while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights, and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired, and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth, and deliver on long-term outcomes.

>>Donnie Johnson:
Hello, everyone. My name is Donnie Johnson. I’m an officer leader for CIB’s markets division. I'm going to play your host. I'm here with my colleague, Frank Van Buren. Author, public speaker, development officer, leader, military veteran, all around phenomenal human being.

>>Frank Van Buren:
It's an absolute pleasure to be here today with my good friend, Donnie Johnson. Donnie and I have been colleagues for many, many years. We started off on the trading floor together. So when we came up with this idea to host this podcast, I can't tell you how excited I was to hear about it and to be part of it. So thank you for inviting me.

>>Donnie Johnson:
Likewise, Frank. Listen, we're going to get right into it. We're going to talk about several different topics, but most importantly, we're going to talk about things that we think are most important to you and your development. So like I said earlier, Frank is also a published author. So one of the things that we're going to talk about today, some of the lessons that he talks about in his book, ‘Life Lessons From The Cockpit.”

>>Frank Van Buren:
I'm excited.

>>Donnie Johnson:
I'm excited for you. I'm excited for the listeners more important because I've read the book. I like the book. I loved the book. And you have some tremendous lessons in it. So what I want to make sure that we get to is, you know, we are talking from the perspective of life lessons that translate both into career but also personal. And you talk about in one of your chapters about opportunity wears camouflage. And you describe an experience where an opportunity presented itself when you least expected it. You didn't see it coming. So what is your advice for people, our junior talent out here, that that might have an opportunity that come their way, how do they prepare themselves for unexpected opportunities?

>>Frank Van Buren:
Well, it's a great lead in. I want to start with to step back just a little bit and discuss that the overarching philosophy when I wrote the book was that I wanted to really, really communicate the concept that the greatest lessons in life, oftentimes the greatest growth, comes through struggle comes through hardship, comes through overcoming adversity. And I wrote the book in a way that didn't glamorize my experience, but I tried to be very authentic in presenting all of the different angles that I had to consider as I worked my way through all of these things associated with doing very ambitious things, whether they're personal insecurities, whether they are gaps in confidence, gaps in skill training, etc. And the first concept that you mentioned, opportunity wears disguise. There's actually a pretty good story about it, and I won't ruin the book, but I will say that between my junior and senior year of college, I had a football knee injury and that pushed back my commissioning through the military for about a year. And the reason that’s significant is the allocations for all of the positions in the military post commissioning process where you go and get trained in a specific technique were already allocated by the time I came through the training because of this knee injury. And so, I found myself at the final day of training being electrified by riding on the back of this Black Hawk helicopter. And I got off the helicopter and naively I thought, well, I'm just going to put in my request and head off to flight training and become a pilot. Well, it turns out that being a pilot was one that's highly in demand. So, it was more than difficult. It was it felt impossible at that time and very frustrating because I couldn't seem to get my ticket to flight school. So fast forward to the story. I had taken a job with Harris, 3M. I was a rep selling fax machines and I stumbled across this gentleman named Mr. Don Hess, and he was a retired pilot, and he was a Vietnam veteran and had lots of connections in the military. And because of my willingness to articulate this dream that I had of one day becoming a pilot, he sensed that I was a person that was committed. I had quite a bit of energy, and he started to make calls on my behalf and came back to me with a proposal. He said, I have a way for you to get to flight school, but it's going to entail risk. And that risk is you're going to have to resign your commission. What you worked through college to become an officer, start again in the Army, go through basic training, and if you make it through there, you'll have a ticket to flight training. And if you finish flight training, you go on active duty flying the best aircraft in the Army. It was an opportunity that was disguised because it required risk. I took the opportunity and obviously from the title of the book, it worked out and it yielded results and I became a pilot. The important point here that we can transfer is oftentimes opportunity doesn't look exactly like you think it's going to look. Maybe there's path that you have to take before you get to the opportunity. As you see it, maybe it requires taking on some additional risk. 

>> Frank Van Buren:
So, the number one thing that I always say about opportunity is because it's camouflage, you have to have a really good idea of what that opportunity entails. In other words, you have to step back and say, okay, what are the core ingredients that I'm looking for in an opportunity? Is there another path that gets me to that opportunity? And that's oftentimes based on really doing a good self-evaluation, introspection on your attributes. Have you thought about what your strengths are? Have you thought about what you bring to the table? What are those opportunities that trigger fulfillment and a sense of, you know, significance and importance in your life? And if you know those foundations, when you stumble into an opportunity that's camouflaged, you can see through it and see that if I do this, it gets to me where I want to go. And that is the key. The other key with understanding opportunities that are often the disguised is putting yourself in the flow of opportunities. And oftentimes that’s being willing to share your personal story, what is it that you aspire to? And you have to be willing to share that. In this case with Mr. Hess, if I would have been unable or unwilling to share with him this goal that I had because of maybe an insecurity that I wouldn't be able to achieve it, then he would not have been in a position to enable me. So, if you want to find enablers, people to facilitate your growth, then you have to be willing to open up and share what it is you're trying to accomplish. And sometimes that requires getting over insecurities or personal concerns with, ‘maybe I won't achieve it.’ The final piece I'll say on this opportunity wears disguises, you have to be able to visualize what the overall victory is for you. So, I often say, think about the type of person you want to become, not the particular job you want first. And it's simply looking at things in a more strategic big vision picture instead of short term tactical. Yes, I want to be an investment banker when I graduate college, but maybe larger than being an investment banker, I want to be an influential businessperson that is a subject matter expert that is involved in the community. So oftentimes I say, look out and identify people who you have a direct admiration for, whether they're people in history, whether there's someone in your family, whether there's someone you work with, identify what particular attribute or quality that they have that you want to emulate, and then start to piece together an overall vision statement of the person you want to become in ten or 15 years. If you know that and you can look towards different historical figures or family members and say, ‘You know, I really love that Winston Churchill was a fantastic speaker. I love that quality about him. And I want to emulate that. I love that Frederick Douglass was a tenacious person, able to break free of slavery, get to the north, educate himself and become a leading abolitionist. What kind of tenacity does it take to become that kind of person?’ And if you identify these qualities and you weave them together in a vision statement for who you want to become ten, 15, 20 years, then when the opportunity presents itself in disguise, it's easy to see if that opportunity will move you towards becoming that person. So, you got to get away from the tactical. I only see opportunity if it equates to the exact job or path that I want to take in the near term and think about how opportunity opens up the gateway to become the person that you aspire to become.

>>Donnie Johnson:
You've mentioned risk a couple of times in your answer. And so, I feel like oftentimes some people will not take an opportunity because they feel like, hey, this could be a risky endeavor. So first and foremost, what was the risk that you took by going back to pilot school? I want to get a little bit on that and then second, talk about the risk that people perceived and how that potentially could hold them back in taking advantage of an opportunity that may be in front of them that they didn't see ahead of time.

>>Frank Van Buren:
Yeah, great question. So the particular risk with this opportunity was I would fall on my face, so I would resign my commission, go from a college graduate lieutenant that's already been commission wearing, you know, they call it a butter bar, the gold bar on my shoulder to going back to becoming an E3, essentially the base level when you join the Army, even if you join out of high school. And I was going to have to go back through another series of officer trainings, qualifications. And if I made it through, I would then have my ticket to flight school. The risk there was if it didn't work, everyone would have thought it was an absolutely foolish move to make because the Army would have enlisted me in that current state as a private and I could have been doing anything the Army needed at that point. That was the first risk. The second risk was I was embarking on an endeavor that could risk my life. And you'll see in the book, there were very many times in the early stages of training where I wondered if I was going to get myself and everyone else killed because of the risk of learning how to fly a helicopter in the Army fashion. And there comes a point in the story where I literally had to solo the aircraft and by myself, and, you know, my instructor kind of gave me a wink and said, ‘You know, don't kill yourself.’ 

>>Donnie Johnson:
‘Good luck, buddy.’ 

>>Frank Van Buren:
Good luck right. But what you’re really getting at is a bigger concept, and that is how do we deal with the fear of failure? Right? Now, the fear of failure has killed more dreams than any other external force, whether it is structural discrimination, whether it is, know, lack of opportunities, what really kills your dream is your fear of failure, because you start to tap the brakes, you start to try to hedge what you're doing instead of going all in. And I always said the greatest lesson I learned when it comes to dealing with fear of failure is to recognize that the fear of regret is far greater. So, I've trained my mind to think, well, what if I'm 85, 90 years old and Donnie you know, my mother just passed away at 100 years old. So. But I'm not I'm not going to assume any of us are going to get to the centenarian phase. But what if I get to the end of my life and I'm on my deathbed and someone asks me, Frank, why didn't you really go for it? Why didn't you try to become the person that you really wanted to be in this case? Why didn't you go for the opportunity to become a pilot when you had the chance? And I'm more fearful of regret that I'll have to say, because I didn't have the courage to try and I was worried about not making it. Now that puts me in a position where I'm okay with failure. And if you remember what I said at the beginning, it is the recognition that through the failure, through the hardship, through the overcoming of adversity, persistence is how you become a better, stronger, more capable human being. It's not the good stuff. And so, once you embrace that concept, that failure, adversity, hardship is growth, then you no longer fear failure. You fear regret. It's a I know it's a mind game. You can look at it a thousand different ways, but if you can train yourself to do that and understand what Frederick Douglass, I told you he was one of my mentors, said, ‘Without struggle, there is no progress.’ Without struggle, there is no progress. So run towards those opportunities. If you fail, at least you fail while daring greatly. As Teddy Roosevelt said.

>>Donnie Johnson:
Love that love that. 

>>Frank Van Buren:
So that your soul may never be with those cold and timid ones who’ve known neither victory nor defeat. 

>>Donnie Johnson:
So, you talked about your risk. But the last thing that you said, let me tell you why it esonated so. One of the things that I always tried to instill into everyone that I have conversations with is gaining some perspective. And you can't really appreciate the magnitude of the risk that you may or may not take unless you've gotten perspective from older people, from more senior people, from people that have been there and done that to say, hey, listen, I know it might seem like a big deal to you now, but quite frankly, it's just not that big of a deal right now. In the scheme of the things that you're going to have in front of you in your life, trust me, it's not that big of a deal right now. A, and B, to your point about looking back at the end of your career or at the end of even if it's just a role or an assignment, looking back. Being able to speak to people that have been there and done that so that they can give you some perspective on how big of a risk you're actually taking. Because I do think that we tend to think the risks that we have in front of us might be a little bit bigger than they actually are. 

>>Frank Van Buren:
Great point. 

>>Donnie Johnson:
So gaining that perspective, I think, is really, really key. Last thing I want to. 

>>Frank Van Buren:
Can I jump on that for a second. 

>>Donnie Johnson:
Yes, please.

>>Frank Van Buren:
When I said that it is through hardship, failure, challenge of adversity that you grow, I should have added one more thing and that is, but you can learn from other people who have failed without actually going through the failure. Maybe the lesson doesn't burn in your soul the same way, but to the extent that you have as someone in finance or someone in medicine that has gone through, and you have the ability to go back and read their story, whether it is, through an autobiography. I always like autobiographies because I can, you know, I can really understand what they were going through. So learning from other people is whether it's in the bullpen, whether it's, you know, in through history or books, is absolutely key in creating your perspective. And remember, I learned that to the extent I want to motivate myself to become the best human being, I have to reduce the amount of people that I'm comparing myself to, only the great ones. So, if I want to be a great public speaker, I then reduce my relative value, for your finance gurus, relative value group so it’s just a few people. Anthony Robbins. Churchill. President Barack Obama and I say, ‘I want to be great like them.’ And I have rabbits and I chase. But if my confidence is suffering, and I’m trying to pick myself up off the ground I need to widen my relative group to the entire population of the world and say, yeah, I didn’t do that well on that speech, but you know what, relative to the 7.7 billion people on the planet I’m doing ok. The key is manipulating your comp group, or your relative comparison group. Whether it’s how you feel about how you look, whether it’s your performance is the key to managing your emotional, your emotional approach to things. 

>>Donnie Johnson:
Increasing your data set, I believe, is what we call in mathematics terms. So, no, I love that.  Listen. Learn from other people's mistakes, not your own. You will learn from your own mistakes, certainly. But if you can learn from other people's mistakes, it'll minimize your own mistakes. So, I love that. So, you talked about how the military helps to eliminate some artificial barriers that society may create and instill some common purpose with common experience. So first and foremost, what are some of those artificial barriers?

>>Frank Van Buren:
You know, all of the diversity dimensions, how we sometimes get caught up in society, whether it's race, whether it's religion, whether it's gender, whether it's, you know, a particular type of, art that you like, maybe it's, you know, your political persuasion. All of those things can create a murky environment where we're thinking more of the differences than the things we have in common. And it is key that all the great leaders in history, whether they are perceived as bad or good, I won't give you any examples, were able to ignite a group of people, a society, to see a common purpose, right? And to see a common purpose, that is what separates a leader from a manager. A manager works to see the differences. Let's say the manager is a football coach. Well, the manager sees well, Donnie, he is very athletic, you know, he's fast, he's agile.

>>Donnie Johnson:
Was. Please put was in front of that.

>>Frank Van Buren:
Lets him out in space, in football, Donnie was a football player, and throw him the bubble screen and see if anyone can cover him. But Charlie here, he’s really big, strong and slow, but he can move people. Let’s put him on the line. In the athletic endeavors or the military, it’s very obvious that you always put people in a position where they maximize their strength. But sometimes in life we don’t think about it in that context. And that’s a big part of what we want to do. 

>>Donnie Johnson:
Can we get off on that for a second? I got to I've got to ask you a question that I have been really thinking a lot about recently, and this is completely, completely off script, but I really I, 

>>Frank Van Buren:
I like off script.

>>Donnie Johnson:
I value your perspective on this. Why is it that when we're discussing leadership, the military is always held as the gold standard for leadership?

>>Frank Van Buren:
Well, great, question, to start, the military has a system of taking in people from all walks of life. So, you have a kid from South Central L.A., a kid from rural Idaho, kid from suburban, you know, D.C. area. And you put them all together and you start with a formula which is as simple as maybe the haircut or the dress or the items that they're able to have. Everyone gets brought down to a common denominator, and from there they introduce a common enemy. Right? It's your drill sergeant at first, but the formula is stating that everyone needs a common base to start. It doesn't mean that the military diminishes anyone's past or history, but at that state that you come together for the experience, it has to be common. So, you're not allowed to have five, you know, pairs of boots, you know, four of them shined up ready to go for the next inspection. And I'm only allowed to have one. Everyone has. So, the military is really good at leveling the playing field with the base. And then they give you a common experience and they hold everyone to common expectations. So, whether it's physical training, whether it's being able to pass an inspection there is an approach that says you all have to go through the same experience with the same standards. The military is fantastic for that. And we're talking at a very elementary level. When you get into things like the sophisticated military training, like flying aircraft or, parachuting at 30,000 feet as a Navy SEAL, obviously, they're very, very, you know, more nuanced, complicated detail. But the military does well because they give you a common experience. And what happens is that kid from South Central and that kid from Idaho, they start to come together to achieve the common goal, which could be getting the unit through the inspection, making sure everyone passes the physical fitness because they know that the military will not allow super stars to emerge and leave people behind. It's a fundamental concept of the military. So how do we convert that to the corporate world?

>>Donnie Johnson:
That was my follow up. Thank you for asking yourself the question. 

>>Frank Van Buren:
I knew you well. We’ve known each other for 20 years. Well, the key is we have to get really good at giving the let's say, the interns a common experience. So, they come in. We have to all give them the same computers. We have to give them the same really good training. We have to give them the same access to mentors. We have to share the same information with them, and then we have to hold them all to high standards. The same high standards. And when we do that, it allows them to then come together and start to share information, right? We can never make it also an environment where it's zero-sum game. I win, you lose. We always have to make it clear that people will emerge as really good performers, but it doesn't mean at the expense of someone else. So, we have to encourage people to go back and help that person in the bullpen that's struggling with the model. If the person that's really good goes back and helps the person that's struggling and we all have areas we’ll struggle, then as a whole we’re better. So, the concept that we have to get into corporate America is we succeed as a team, not as individuals. And the people that, you know, support those core values are the ones that should be rewarded in the long run. The other thing that we have to do, and we do quite a bit with ensuring that, you know, any kind of dimensions, whether in diversity dimensions or where you're from or what should never be something that's held again, we should always have an environment that is respectful and allows for people to bring their authentic self to work without regard for any kind of retribution. And I think we've done a really good job at Wells Fargo of moving towards that. The military's really good with that, and I think we can learn quite a few lessons. And then of course, there's always the fun stuff in the military, like, you know, the Jody cadences. And that's, you know, when you're out running together. Right. We would sing a song that everyone learns. And through that, through the struggle, the physical struggle and the singing of the song, there is a connectivity that's forged. Well, I don't think we're going to be walking around the trading floor or singing songs, but I will tell you that to the extent we can do common things, for example, we have a day where we all go and work on Habitat for Humanity, or we have a day where we all decide we're going to contribute to something that's larger than oneself. We will start to forge that cohesiveness and create a much better culture. And I think we're on the way and I feel really good about where we are.

>>Donnie Johnson:
So, what I took away from that, what I heard you say was the military has created a mechanism to create a more equal opportunity environment.

>>Frank Van Buren:
Yes, and with equal opportunity comes equal responsibility. And I think that’s sometimes the gap that we miss, whether it's in the military or anywhere else. The military makes it very clear if you need 70 push-ups to pass, I'm just throwing this out there. It's been so long. I don't even know how much it takes to pass. If you don't pass, you don't pass. Right. And so there has to be a credibility that the common experience includes common, expectations and common thresholds of performance. Now, what I will say is you know, if Donnie doesn't make his 70 push-ups, there is a program and there is a lot of energy that goes to getting him up to that level. We used to have a process where when we went out for a run as a group, if stragglers started to emerge and fall back, the whole formation, we could be five, six miles into a run. Everyone's exhausted. Looking forward to finishing the last mile. And if people start to fall out, the leader of the run would turn the whole formation around, run back to those stragglers, rejoin them, which of course, now everyone in the group is a little bit mad at the stragglers because now they're running more than the six miles. But the concept was everyone can be brought on. The concept of it's our responsibility as leaders, whether that's someone that's a VP or an associate in a bullpen looking after a brand-new analyst or intern, it's our responsibility to make sure the other person gets up to speed and can make those thresholds.

>>Donnie Johnson:
So more equal opportunity, more clear standards and more support when those standards are met. I love that. 

>>Frank Van Buren:
Precisely.

>>Donnie Johnson:
Another part in the book you talked about, effectively not all doors being open to you when you thought you had the opportunity. You found some closed doors at some point. You, back doored your way, as you would say, Into flight school. So, what does one do? Please give some advice. And share some perspective on what does one do when they continue to work hard and are diligent and opportunities are not coming their way?

>>Frank Van Buren:
Great question, because it's very possible that the opportunity that you perceive to be the right opportunity may not in retrospect, after you've giving it sufficient time, may not prove to be the opportunity that is really ideally suited for you. So, I'll start by saying that the number one question you need to ask is why are these doors continuing to close for me? And it has to be an honest assessment of your capabilities, your desire to do it. If there are gaps that are causing these doors to close, are you willing to do what it takes to close those gaps? For example, if you want to be in a certain finance job and they know that deep accounting or financial statement analysis is necessary, and the program that you went through doesn't have that. Are you willing to take the steps to go and do seminars or self-study programs to close those gaps? But the bigger question here is when you identify an opportunity and doors are closing, you need to be honest with the reason that they're closing. Now, you may determine that you just aren't trying hard enough. And maybe that involves you need to get out of this silo that you're communicating through, and you need to think about getting other perspectives and you need to broaden the amount of people that you're sharing your story with. My doors were closed because I was trying to take a traditional route when that route was not open anymore because of my knee injury, it was closed, and the frustration was I kept trying to go down that same route and tried in trying to get them to make exceptions to let me in the program instead of trying to get creative. Like ultimately when I stumbled into Mr. Hess to figure out that there are different routes to get you to where you want if you're willing and able to open your mind and think creatively. Sometimes your first move, your opening gambit, let's say, out of college, isn't to that perfect opportunity. The door is closed. Oftentimes in investment banking, the recruiting is so far accelerated forward that if you missed that window as a sophomore in college and you don't apply, you're kind of behind the eight ball because most of the big bulge bracket firms, they hire their full-time folks from the summer intern class their junior year, but the summer intern class and the junior is selected April, May of your sophomore year. So, if you then missed that window and you're behind the eight ball and then you're trying to pigeonhole your way into the normal process, you might be missing the opportunity and you might be coming frustrated and doors are closing because you're not stepping back and saying, well, wait, there are some boutiques that hire investment bankers. Maybe I'll get the experience there. And it'll position me my junior year to then able to offer some value. Maybe there are correlated opportunities. Maybe I can go become a consultant or financial statement analysis expert. Or I can learn modeling in real estate and then double back with a better candidacy than I have right now. Instead of continuing to bang your head against the same door, creativity, aggressiveness in seeking opportunities, and more importantly, when the door opens, you have to be willing to run through it at all costs. And it may not be the perfect door you want. 

>>Donnie Johnson:
When you're talking about being ready for the opportunity sometimes, we aren't ready for that opportunity when we think that we are. And we've been working lots and lots of hours. At the end of the day, it required more. It required more years or more experience or more technical expertise, whatever it may be. Sometimes we realized that it just wasn't the right time for us. We got to continue to keep working. We hear a lot about impact. I think most people, for the most part say, which would want to say, I want to make an impact, I want to make a positive impact. So, for you, what are some of the things that you've seen whereby people are able to make a positive impact in this corporate setting.

>>Frank Van Buren:
This is going to be a somewhat nuanced answer because it's a complex, it's a simple in concept what is a positive impact. But when you weave in all the variables that a human being would think about before they deemed it to be a positive impact or a corporation deems it to be a positive impact, it gets a little a little more complicated. I'll start by saying no individual can feel like they've made a positive impact unless they're aligned with their core values. So, if I'm in a role and the role’s direct impact by the job description, I'll use trading. Since you and I met on the trading floor and the measurement of positive impact is a P&L. Let's say that you were derivatives trader Donnie. So, if the number one way that we're measuring your positive impact on the business is P&L and you have a great P&L, then the job description would say that you made a positive impact. But if you as a person don't value the positive impact through those lens, and instead you're viewing positive impact through your ability to, you know, alter the course of another human being's life or to express empathy, then your personal core values may allow you to intellectually see that you've made an impact, but you don't feel it. You don't feel it because it's not aligned with who you are. So, the number one thing about a positive impact is you've really got to do introspection and figure out what are those things that give you a sense of fulfillment? Think back on your life 3 to 5 times where you felt important. You felt like I was doing something that was meaningful. What were you doing? And break each case down and figure out if there's a common thread. If you know that common thread, it may not be so I can see, you know, a P&L that has large numbers. So, you may have a disconnect. But as far as the job description, you could be making a positive impact. And then when you talk about core values, they're very much personal and they have to resonate with each person because you cannot feel a positive impact if it's not touching on the things that give you a sense of fulfillment. So even though you're sitting there and you're trading and you're making lots of money, you put up $50 million this year, everyone's lionizing you because Donnie Johnson did a great job making money. You may know it intellectually. You may get paid for it because it's valued by the firm, but inside it may not feel like it's a positive impact. And that's how you have people who may be incredibly successful in their job, but there's something missing they’re, you know, dissatisfied, comfortably dissatisfied. On a corporate basis, we have a corporate set of core values, and if you want to make an impact from the corporate perspective, well, you should be conducting yourself in concert with those core values. So, there are all these variables that go into it. Personally, for me to make a positive impact, I have to really believe that I'm impacting another human being. And when I was a banker, when I was sales and trading, even when the moments when we had big success, I didn't feel that to the same degree that I did when I was mentoring someone or in the military when we landed helicopters in these remote villages in Central America, and we took doctors and medical teams. That's how I'm wired. And again, it goes back to introspection and understanding what is important to you? Each person's different. So, I know that's a really, really cloudy answer to what you said, but a nuanced point.

>>Donnie Johnson:
I don't know. I don't know if it's as cloudy as you say it is. I can't echo strongly enough the need for that self-introspection to understand what are those values that are most important to you that will make you happy in the tasks that you do on a daily basis, in the way that you impact people and your firm. And then I'll also say one additional thing we probably have a core set of values that are in us and with us as a result of our upbringing, our experience of childhood, our education and you name it, a set of 3 to 4 or five. But the priority can change over time, right? 

>>Frank Van Buren:
Yes.

>>Donnie Johnson:
It's not that necessarily, you know, you go from polar opposites in values, but at the end of the day, different times in your life, you will prioritize different values that you have. And so, you need to always have the mindset that you will do continual self-introspection because you need to make sure that the task are lining up to those first and second priorities. 

>>Frank Van Buren:
Let me jump in one thing. I see it almost as continuous, but I like to do it in two year clips. I think if you take a job, it's your responsibility to reciprocate whatever the organization gave to you for the opportunity. You work as hard as you can for two years. You try to master the fundamentals of the job. You try to learn the culture, get along, be a great teammate. You look for opportunities to add value above and beyond your job, and at the end of two years, you should have enough time to know if how you rate relative to others in those base skills, you should have an understanding of, you know, is this consistent with the human being? Because if you do it too early, your confidence is low because you can't be confident unless you have competence. So, confidence is like is never like a birthright and you have it for your whole life. I've been very, very confident and I've been not confident at all. And the difference was, your perceived competence time in job understanding, the mechanics of the job. So, after two years, you do need to then every two years you should come to a fork in the road. Even if you're not going anywhere. You should say, okay, from what I know in the last two years, should I continue down this fork or change to another four? And so, it's an evolutionary process. Think about it this way. Most people mismanage life. And I don't mean to sound like I've always properly managed. I definitely had huge periods where I mismanaged, but these concepts that I'm talking about now, I've learned how to manage life. But think about this. You're a kid, you're five years old. You're in the backyard with your brother, sister. You're having a great time, you're playing, you're laughing, everything's wonderful. And then you start school, you invest in education, you invest in, you know, in growth in all different ways, whether it's, you know, language skills, athletics skills. You're growing as a human being in your relationships. And you go on, you get a good SAT score, you get into a good college like mom and dad want you to do, and then you get a good job. And then from that good job, you get a promotion. And all along you were just hitting the targets in front of you without ever asking, ‘Am I increasing my fulfillment and happiness from that starting point of five years old?’ Now, I will tell you, most people go through this process, end up in middle age. They have all the trappings of success, whether it's the car, the job, the title, the prestige. But inside there is a sense that they are not happy or unfulfilled. And the reason is not because they didn't put in tremendous effort. They achieved everything they wanted. It's because they never ensured that they were aligned with a path that would give them incremental happiness. If you go if you think of a scale X and Y axis and you're looking at happiness and time or your life and that line is dwindling as it goes out. You have mismanaged your life. I'm just being honest.

>>Donnie Johnson:
I couldn't agree more. 

>>Frank Van Buren:
And we all have done it. So, the way you correct that is you've got to really spend time in introspection and understand that, yes, the lines are going to go down at first from when you're five, but over time, your line should be going back up because every successive decision or fork in the road should be made. The decision is this moving me towards the job that I should do, not that I can do.

>>Donnie Johnson:
Frank, I can't tell you how much I appreciated this conversation. This has been a long time coming, my friend. 

>>Frank Van Buren:
That’s right. 

>>Donnie Johnson:
This has been a long time coming. I enjoyed it. I hope that the rest of the Leading Voices audience enjoyed it as well. Thank you very much for your time. Remember, Frank Van Buren, Development Officer, Leader for the banking division. My name is Donnie Johnson. I'm the development officer leader for the markets division. Anything we can do to help you and your success, that is our job. We are here to make sure that you are as successful as possible.

Disclosures:

This information is provided for educational and illustrative purposes only.

Securities are:

• Not Insured by the FDIC or Any Federal Government Agency
• Not a Deposit or Other Obligation of, or Guaranteed by, the Bank or Any Bank Affiliate
• Subject to Investment Risks, Including Possible Loss of the Principal Amount Invested

This podcast should not be copied, distributed, published, or reproduced, in whole or in part. 

The views expressed on this podcast represent the opinions of the authors on prospective trends in the domestic markets and the financial institutions industry and is intended for global financial institutions partners and customers, and other market participants who are customers of Wells Fargo. The views expressed within are not intended as a recommendation offer or solicitation with respect to the purchase or sale of any security or other financial product nor does it constitute professional advice.  The views and opinions expressed are also not necessarily those of Wells Fargo and may differ from the views and opinions of other departments or divisions of Wells Fargo.  Wells Fargo does not make any representation or warranty, express or implied, as to the accuracy or completeness of the statements or any information expressed within this podcast and any liability therefore (including in respect of direct, indirect, or consequential loss or damage) is expressly disclaimed.

We do not guarantee this information but have obtained it from sources we believe to be reliable. 

Opinions expressed are based on our experience and judgment as of this recording and are subject to change without notice. 

This is not an offer to sell or to buy any security or foreign currency. Any past performance discussed during this podcast is no guarantee of future results. Any forward-looking statements or forecasts are based on assumptions and actual results may vary from any such statements or forecasts.

Any indices referenced are for performance comparison are unmanaged and cannot be invested into directly. As always please remember investing involves risk and possible loss of principal capital; please seek advice from your licensed professionals.

All price references and market forecasts are as of the date of recording. 

Wells Fargo Corporate & Investment Banking (CIB) and Wells Fargo Securities (WFS) are the trade names used for the corporate banking, capital markets, and investment banking services of Wells Fargo & Company and its subsidiaries, including but not limited to Wells Fargo Securities, LLC, member of NYSE, FINRA, NFA, and SIPC, Wells Fargo Prime Services, LLC, member of FINRA, NFA and SIPC, and Wells Fargo Bank, N.A., member NFA and swap dealer registered with the CFTC and security-based swap dealer registered with the SEC, member FDIC.  Wells Fargo Securities, LLC and Wells Fargo Prime Services, LLC, are distinct entities from affiliated banks and thrifts.

This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big, and so do we. And our Leading Voices Series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities and commercial real estate while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways, industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new, sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth and deliver on long term outcomes.

>> Danielle Squires:
Hi, I'm Danielle Squires, head of diverse segments for corporate and investment banking at Wells Fargo. Joining me today is Kristy Fercho, Head of Diverse Segments, Representation and Inclusion at Wells Fargo. And today, we're going to be discussing what our team does and how we work with diverse owned and diverse led companies and minority depository institutions, or MDIs, to help serve the diverse needs of all our clients.  All right. Let's get started. Kristy, thanks for being here today. And you, as we just said, are head of diverse segments, representation and inclusion across all of Wells Fargo. Can you start by summarizing what your role entails and more specifically, how Wells Fargo thinks about diverse segments as a company and why this is absolutely critical to the work that we do?

>> Kristy Fercho:
Yes, thanks Danielle. And first, let me just say thank you for inviting me to be part of this with you today. So, yes, diverse segments, representation and inclusion, and it is a mouthful as it relates to a title, but each word was very specifically chosen. So the diverse segments part of this really focuses on our diverse customer segments and wanting to make sure that we are in a position to better serve and grow the business that we have with our diverse customer segments. And you think like diverse segments, people often think about underserved or the   unbanked. And for us though, in financial services, it really represents this full spectrum all the way from unbanked and low to moderate income all the way up to ultra-high net worth. And the opportunities that exist in each one of our businesses. Across each one of those dimensions. The representation and inclusion is what you would think about when you think about more classic DE&I at companies. The representation really is wanting to make sure that we look like America at every level of the bank from kind of the entry level all the way up to the board, and that we are managing the business with that diverse mindset at all levels of the company. And then the inclusion is how does it all come together, really bringing the best of all of these diverse mindsets and perspectives and experiences to create better products and solutions in service of these diverse customer segments. And so, as we really think about kind of those three pillars, they really do come together for us very well. This is opportunity that you think about. And when you say, ‘Why is this important to Wells Fargo?’ It really is. When we look down the road and we think about what the U.S. population is going to look like, it is projected that the population will be more racially and ethnically diverse as the non-Hispanic white population continues to shrink. And in fact, by 2045, you'll actually see that the U.S. is majority minority. And so that business proposition in terms of the changing demographic in the country is really, really powerful. But when you look at what's actually happening there, right, the economic value of let's just focus on Hispanics, which is the fastest growing population that we have, if you were to aggregate all that economic value, Hispanics, the GDP of them would be $2.8 trillion, which would be like the fifth largest country. If you think of minority owned businesses, right, with annual sales of $1.5 trillion and growing and certainly the economic value of this minimum of $340 billion in wealth opportunity that is coming from Black and African American households, the value prop is pretty clear around the changing demographics and how important it is for Wells Fargo to be able to meet the needs of those customers. And so it's not this short term fix that we were looking to do. It really is this long-term commitment that we have as a company but really being intentional about what are the actions that we need to take. And I don't have to tell that to you, Danielle, you're actually on the front line of that bringing this to life every day within CIB.  And so I would love for you to just share with the audience what does a diverse segment inside of the corporate investment bank, does that look like and how are you approaching the work on a day to day basis? 

>> Danielle Squires:
I appreciate that, Kristy, and especially your description of diverse segments, representation and inclusion is really holistic and encompassing, and that's, that's really important. And it's specifically important for us in the corporate and investment bank as we take a look at it as to how can we help really grow and maximize positive outcomes for our diverse clients and communities. And we do that by granting greater access to the capital markets, creating connections where there aren't any, and trying to fill product gaps that are in the market. We believe wholeheartedly that deepening relationships are core to our business. As we've said it before, building trust with our clients, our partners, our communities. We want to grow our companies and we want to really do that across the entire financial ecosystem. And so, we look at it not just on, you know, diverse, owned and diverse led companies themselves, but how can we grow and diversify what you might consider sort of big, large, traditionally non-diverse leadership teams and large public companies? How can we help them, one, achieve their DE&I strategy and two, really maximize the work they do with diverse constituencies as well? And some of the things that we've done that I think folks could find interesting would be the work that we've done with diverse broker dealers and underwriters. And specifically, this is a contingent of fantastic market participants that just haven't had the ability, if you will, from a connectivity perspective, to play a part in the capital markets, the equity capital markets, the fixed income capital markets, the bonds really across that spectrum of debt and capital raising. They've got a great distribution network but haven't always been known to the companies and corporations who are out there issuing the bonds. And guess what? We know that, right? We both know the diverse broker dealers and underwriters, and we're both helping those companies issue their bonds. And so, we feel that it's important to connect those to play a part in really elevating the diverse broker dealers, underwriters, given the strength of their own financial capacities and the things that they can do, how can we bring that out to our clients? It helps our clients and it helps the diverse broker dealers. It helps us back at Wells Fargo. Really, this is the purpose, I think, of what we want to do throughout all of our diverse segments groups, but specifically in the corporate and investment bank. We'd love to see a paradigm shift in the market. I think too often we hear folks say that diverse business is philanthropic and solely morally good, but we know and we believe that you pointed out the case, and we believe that as well in the corporate investment bank, that diverse business is simply good business and it's a great business. And so for us, that's kind of sort of how we work and how we lead. And we do this through our fixed income markets. We do it through our real estate, our commercial real estate portfolio, and we do it in traditional investment banking both here and abroad. Just really there's a great opportunity to diversify business across the entire financial ecosystem. And that's what we're focusing on, which is why we're really excited about it, because there's a lot of work to do and we think we've got a lot of time to do this work. And I think one of the things that I talked about sort of creating those connections, partnership and engagement are really key pillars of the work that I do. And you've been instrumental in that. And one of the things that we've done lately together is be a part of the Black Business Leaders Summit that we recently hosted in New Orleans. And I really think that this is a great example of engagement and action. We brought 150 Black leaders from across all industries, from across the country to really sit and talk about where we can partner together, how we can build together, how we celebrated each other, too, Right? We took a moment to say the work that is getting done and how great it. Kristy, as we said, you were there with me on the ground. I'd love to also hear you talk a bit about what you saw and heard from our clients and your thought overall and how this engagement can help us all move this ball forward.

>> Kristy Fercho:
Well, one, it was an extraordinary experience and I think just the energy in the room was really palpable as I was describing it to someone, you know, kind of as senior Black leaders many of us spend a lot of time being the only one in the room. And I think the power of what was created at the Black Business Leaders Summit is there was a bunch of the only’s, right? And so all at once we were no longer the only’s is in the room. It was a group of all only's and the alignment and the common interest of what people want to achieve or that they were working on their own to be able to drive forward was really palpable. And, you know, the one thing that we know about this work is it can't be done alone. There is so much power in partnership and shared focus, and I think we really experience that at the Black Business Leadership Summit. I mean, sitting around the table for people and sharing ideas that individuals had about or things that they were working on those opportunities, it just became really clear that like, Oh, I'm working on that. Oh, you're doing that? Oh, I am too. Who do you know? And then the know you game and the opportunities really just came so clear as people then got excited about the opportunities to be able to work together, to be able to identify the common challenges that everybody was facing and then in saying, okay, how do we solve those together? Right? And really bringing that collective knowledge to the table to be able to advance it. But it also is this really intentional dialog and really deliberate dialog around how do we solve these problems. I think everyone knows kind of what the key issues and the problems were, but there was nobody sitting around to admire the problems. It really was how do we lean in and be able to do this work together? And I think that's what was most exciting for me coming out of it. It wasn't only just the acknowledgment of partnership and the engagement, but the creativity and the idea generation that came from if we partnered together, we could advance this more quickly. I think that's really what Wells Fargo is trying to do in this space, is we're trying to say, can we bring a group of people together as the convener, people that have common shared goals and interests, and can we identify a handful of ideas that we could really move forward in a meaningful way with Wells Fargo leveraging our resources and our distribution network across the different lines of business and across the country to be able to solve these problems. And so I think it was a tremendous opportunity to have a positive impact on the communities where we all work and live and play. And it was just really exciting to see all of that come together. And I can't wait to see the outcomes that actually get produced as a result of it. So it was an exceptional experience for me for sure. But, you know, we're just not talking about the fact that it was a great experience in a great location for a couple of days. But I really do think about and as I said Danielle, the business opportunity that gets created going forward. And so I'd be great to hear you talk a little bit about how these engagements really drive business results from Wells Fargo.

>> Danielle Squires:
Yeah, and I think it kind of brings us back to the idea that diverse business is good business. 

>> Kristy Fercho:
Sure.

>> Danielle Squires:
And you talked about that. We're not just talking, but we are, we’re sitting there, we're analyzing, we're dissecting, and we're really feeding off, I think, the energy and the positivity in the room with thoughts on what solutions can be and to go out and drive them. I always say this isn't a one bank solution. This isn't a one person, a one company solution. What took hundreds of years to really disenfranchise people and systematically, it's not going to be solved by one bank or one person over the next couple of months. But really to be very deliberate, very on top of it and very forward looking and forward thinking over the next several years and paying attention to every spot that's out there where we can actually do better and do stuff together. And I think that's really what's important. And as you talk about driving business, right, the things that we think of are where are there real estate opportunities in the zones that need development and need investment and how can we bring groups of people together to really do that together? Where are the opportunities, where there are capital raising needs and ideas, and how can we bring those who have capital together with those who need capital to get it right? That's actually how businesses grow and develop by having right access to capital, having the right ideas and the right support behind them. And so, Wells Fargo can be a part all along the way, all three of those. But again, if we can bring more people along, we can grow faster and grow bigger together. And I think that's pretty big. So from us, from a business perspective, we look at how many financing opportunities are there at that table, right, that we can help be a part of as well. How many companies realize that they can grow by, by purchasing another company that's out there? Maybe they met them there or maybe they have an idea from there from out of it. How can we help them and guide them through that process and be value add there? You know, some of the other things I think about too are how far and wide can this message go? And by not limiting this to one industry, or not limiting this to sort of one type of group or one geographic location. What we've also done to spread the word wide and far, right?

One of the things I said at that conference I think is really important that we talk about all the time is the things that we discuss in these inner circles or these meetingsor these groups to move forward. You know, I think I said something like what happens in New Orleans doesn't stay in New Orleans. It’s not Las Vegas, right? We kind of move things forward and we've got to do more conversations like this. So, if there's even somebody listening today who says, you know, I have a great idea, great. We want to hear that idea. We want to know what we can do together. And so to me, that's what driving business forward looks like. It's creating opportunities and places where people can bring ideas to us or we can bring ideas to them. And there's some sort of business driving opportunity going forward that we do together and bring other and more people in.

>> Kristy Fercho:
Yeah, and you said something critical there, which I think is really important for people to hear. When you think about the large banks or financial institutions, I think most people probably think about, oh, we're in competition. And while that may be true in a lot of areas, it is not true in this area. And I love how you captured, you know, the complexity of this issue really does require us to all work together to bring this forward. So, this is a space where collaboration and cooperation actually is in all of our mutual shared interests. If somebody has got a great idea, let's share it so we can build on it and expand on it. And I think that's how we think about this work at Wells Fargo, which is people are out doing great things all over this country. And, and as we're looking at it, we're saying, where can we partner and engage to be able to add value so that the level of success achieved is greater because of our involvement. And that's a little bit of the measuring stick that we're going to hold ourselves accountable to, which is did we make it better by engaging and involving and could we then grow this? And so that level of cooperation is, I think, really important in this work. No one can do it alone. 

>> Danielle Squires:
Yeah, it actually makes me think of one other thing that we talked about and that we continue to think is a critical part. It's we’re moving and I mentioned this in the beginning, the minority depository institutions specifically there are 20 Black owned banks in the United States. Now, obviously there were more before, but only 20 now. And while we've played at Wells Fargo, in part in helping to grow and maximize their efforts and their positive work through deposits, through assistance, through guidance, through equity investments, $50 million across 13, I have to say there's more to do and there's more that we can do and there's more that other banks can do and more that other companies can do with placing deposits in them as well and helping them grow. They serve a tremendous community team and they serve a group of folks across the United States who need their services and need their bank. Again, you said it. It's not a competition in that respect. Right. I will say that I look forward to the day where we are 30, 40 years from now, and maybe this becomes a larger competition to get all this done with all these banks. But the point is, right now, it isn’t. Right now we all need to be in this and doing that work, like you said. And so, Kristy, also one of the greatest things I think, about our Black Business Leaders Summit is, again, this wasn't sort of corporate investment banking specific, right? This included Ruth Jackson, from our commercial bank, who was in conversation with Wole Coaxum from MoCaFi. Right. An amazing company, diverse owned company, doing business with governments out there, one that we've invested in and one that we want to see continue to grow. In addition to that, had the opportunity to speak on Bloomberg Radio with Jon Weiss, who's the head of our Corporate and Investment Bank and your peer on the Wells Fargo Operating Committee. It's just truly coming together and understanding that together we can push all of this forward when we work together to do it. And then the other thing I'd mention as I continue to talk about our minority depository institutions, Todd McDonald, who's president of Liberty Bank, Right. One of the oldest and the largest Black owned MDI that's out there and based in New Orleans, and he was in conversation with Nicole Elam, who's president of the National Bankers Association and CEO there, and the National Bankers Association, as you know. But maybe many of our listeners may not know is the trade organization for all the MDIs, of which there are 144. So to have them in conversation with the American public on Bloomberg Radio with well over a million listeners really, I think broadened the horizon and the reach of our MDIs. And so these are the things that I think were so wonderful to accomplish through Black Business Leaders Summit. And it was our inaugural summit, which, you know, as you said before, from an excitement perspective, I think it only gets bigger and better from here. So I'm just so happy that those participants can play a really large part of the success and hopefully does tremendously well for their businesses as well. 

>> Kristy Fercho:
Yeah, and I couldn't agree more Danielle. And what was powerful for me as well is, you know, the power of Bloomberg being there, it was a microcosm of the rooms that, you know, are happening all over this country, right. People coming together and convening to really solve business issues and the Bloomberg interviews just gave people outside of the Black Business Summit visibility into the conversations that are happening in this space. And when you talk about the spectrum for Wells Fargo, and I think that really is important, we talk about this access across the entire continuum from unbanked all the way up to ultrahigh net worth and from small mom and pop small business all the way up to large corporate banks. I mean, you had Dave Steward in the room, right, the largest privately held Black business in the country with Worldwide Technologies and the conversation and insight about how he started and really grew that business, because there was a lot of people in that room that are thinking about how do I get from being, you know, $5 million to $10 million and $10 million to $25 million, $25 million to $100 million, And you have Dave there sitting I think I'll do $20 billion this year in revenue. It's pretty powerful and you certainly can't leave the conversation without talking about the fireside chat that I had the opportunity to facilitate with Chairman T.D. Jakes and the work that we're doing with our disruptive partnership with the T.D. Jakes Enterprises and really the potential to really reach into these communities. And I think, again, going back to this theme about partnership and engagement, the power of being able to have folks who are so plugged in and entrenched and really trusted advisor and source like a T.D. Jakes, and to be able to be at the table and in conversation with him about what are the needs of the community, how do we earn the trust, how do we provide access when we show up with a product or a solution? How do we ensure that they actually trust that we're going to do the right thing in the communities? And that's really, I think, the power of the conversation that got forged at the Black Business Leaders Summit. But also it really is the start of conversations that will continue long after New Orleans. 

>>  Danielle Squires:
I have to tell you, Kristy, this was a really, really incredible conversation and really just the start, as you said, it's one where we have to continue and have to continue to make progress. You talked about it. We're committed to advancing diversity, equity and inclusion by helping ensure all people across our workforce, our communities, our partners and our clients feel valued and respected, have equal access to resources, services, products and opportunities to succeed. We want to be at the forefront of it. We want to partner with people to get it done. So I have to thank you so much for joining me today. And for our listeners, please stay tuned for more conversations from our diverse segments leaders as well in the coming weeks and months. As community and client leaders, we are here to serve you and we are here to work with you. So we thank you very much for listening today.

Disclosures:

This information is provided for educational and illustrative purposes only.

Securities are:

• Not Insured by the F-D-I-C or Any Federal Government Agency
• Not a Deposit or Other Obligation of, or Guaranteed by, the Bank or Any Bank Affiliate
• Subject to Investment Risks, Including Possible Loss of the Principal Amount Invested

This podcast should not be copied, distributed, published, or reproduced, in whole or in part. 

The views expressed on this podcast represent the opinions of the authors on prospective trends in the domestic markets and the financial institutions industry and is intended for global financial institutions partners and customers, and other market participants who are customers of Wells Fargo. The views expressed within are not intended as a recommendation offer or solicitation with respect to the purchase or sale of any security or other financial product nor does it constitute professional advice.  The views and opinions expressed are also not necessarily those of Wells Fargo and may differ from the views and opinions of other departments or divisions of Wells Fargo.  Wells Fargo does not make any representation or warranty, express or implied, as to the accuracy or completeness of the statements or any information expressed within this podcast and any liability therefore (including in respect of direct, indirect, or consequential loss or damage) is expressly disclaimed.

We do not guarantee this information but have obtained it from sources we believe to be reliable. 

Opinions expressed are based on our experience and judgment as of this recording and are subject to change without notice. 

This is not an offer to sell or to buy any security or foreign currency. Any past performance discussed during this podcast is no guarantee of future results. Any forward-looking statements or forecasts are based on assumptions and actual results may vary from any such statements or forecasts.

Any indices referenced are for performance comparison are unmanaged and cannot be invested into directly. As always please remember investing involves risk and possible loss of principal capital; please seek advice from your licensed professionals.

All price references and market forecasts are as of the date of recording. 

Wells Fargo Corporate & Investment Banking (CIB) and Wells Fargo Securities (WFS) are the trade names used for the corporate banking, capital markets, and investment banking services of Wells Fargo & Company and its subsidiaries, including but not limited to Wells Fargo Securities, LLC, member of NYSE, FINRA, NFA, and SIPC, Wells Fargo Prime Services, LLC, member of FINRA, NFA and SIPC, and Wells Fargo Bank, N.A., member NFA and swap dealer registered with the CFTC and security-based swap dealer registered with the SEC, member FDIC.  Wells Fargo Securities, LLC and Wells Fargo Prime Services, LLC, are distinct entities from affiliated banks and thrifts.

This is Leading Voices, a Wells Fargo podcast. Our clients think big, and so do we.  In our Leading Voices series, our leaders will share deep expertise across corporate banking, investment banking, fixed income, equities, and commercial real estate, while exploring the timely trends, actionable insights, and strategic opportunities to help power your business into a better, more inspired, and equitable future. With a focus on highlighting innovative ways industry leaders and visionary clients are embracing new sustainable strategies and solutions to navigate change, elevate their business growth, and deliver on long-term outcomes.

>> Geneviève Piché:

A few years ago, all we were talking about were green bonds. And that’s all there was. And now we are really elevating the dialog. 

>> Piché:
Welcome to Wells Fargo's Corporate and Investment Banking's Leading Voices podcast. This is our very first podcast, and I am super excited to be here with you. My name is Geneviève Piché. I lead the Sustainable Finance and Advisory Group. And I am joined here by David Szmigielski on our team. Hi, David. 

>> David Szmigielski:
Hi, Geneviève, glad to be here in Charlotte with you. It's such a sunny day. It’s beautiful out. 

>> Piché:
Thank you so much for coming from New York this morning. New Jersey, actually your home state. There is something really quirky that we were just talking about before we started, which is that you really love swamps. 

>> Szmigielski:
I really am a wetlands super fan, and I try to do my part in restoring our local ecosystems. As you pointed out, I live in New Jersey and work in New York. There's quite a bit of tidal and estuary ecosystems out there. And when I'm not kind of poking around in the muck, I'm just spending time there with my family and Geneviève, I know you're a huge fan of the national parks, so that's pretty similar. 

>> Piché:
It is, yes. Huge fan of the national parks and it's something that we've been doing for a long time. And now we have an eight-year-old son and do the junior Ranger programs and have a great time. So I think it makes us very well-suited to the work that we, do, aside from the fact that we're also bankers. So as we prepared for this podcast it really made me think of a quote from Coca-Cola's CEO, James Quincey, and he said this at a dinner of fellow CEOs earlier this year. And he said, It seems like ESG has become a toxic topic, a toxic acronym. And he said that may very well be and I will stop using it. And I'm paraphrasing, by the way, but he also said the idea that I want to be water positive, that I want to have a circular economy on my packaging, that I want to grow our business with less sugar are all things that are good for business. Call it what you want, but they are value creating and I think that is such an important topic, which is what we want to talk about here today, which is sustainability strategies are value creating. In your client engagement, David, do you see this topic coming up? 

>> Szmigielski:
Absolutely Geneviève. This is a huge keystone point in all of our engagements with our client base. A great opportunity or example of this is all of the waste heat out there in industrial processes. This is a by-product and it is an opportunity to capture that heat to generate additional electricity or additional power or additional production. And it's one that is untapped largely. And here is a great example of achieving gains not only in energy efficiency, operational efficiency, financial savings, saving on your electricity bill ultimately, but also satisfying environmental gains, reduction of emissions and the like as well. 

>> Piché:
Right. And a lot of these initiatives that you've just mentioned are reducing cost for companies. They are creating margin expansion. They are attracting new customers. They are driving valuation, and all of these things are better understood now than they ever were before. Five years ago, we were not having these conversations and as a result, we as a bank are having to up-tier and improve the type of engagement that we have because our clients are more sophisticated. And I want to ask you a little bit about some of the analytical work that we're doing to support our clients. 

>> Szmigielski:
Yeah. So, you know, a really great example of this type of analytical work that tries to demonstrate the value not only on the financial side, but also what are those additionalities from an environmental and social perspective is work that we're doing with our client base around their fleet electrification. So some of our clients have large corporate fleets. They might be simple vehicles that just get employees from site A to site B. To make client calls to visit other offices. Also more heavy duty infrastructure, bucket trucks and trailers and tractors and the like. How do you actually address that entire fleet as that fleet ages as that fleet needs to be replaced? And how do you do it in a way that satisfies multiple aims, not only those that are related to the energy efficiency and the fuel economy of those underlying vehicles, but also satisfying social and environmental gains all in one discussion. And so what we've developed is a tool to engage clients around the operational savings, the CapEx associated with replacement of the fleet, the life expectancy of the underlying vehicles, etc.. But also what are the emission savings associated with electrifying a fleet and how do those tie to our clients emissions and sustainability metrics? And what does this mean for our clients employee base for example, what are some of the unquantifiable but very tangible benefits to employee health and safety, as well as employee engagement at the worksite and how does this impact communities? We have really tangible examples of utility clients, for example, being able to operate longer in the communities that they serve because the vehicles are quieter. 

>> Piché:
It's so interesting what you're describing because I think when we had undertaken our very first work in sustainability, we formed this group three years ago, we were looking at value creation from an equity valuation standpoint. And we found it very hard to find, and that's because equity values incorporate so many different facets that are difficult to isolate to a specific sustainability initiative. But what we have found and this what you’re describing here is that it has very tangible benefits for cash flow. And when you describe the model that you're talking about here, the methodology, you’re really talking about a CapEx spend that results in OpEx reductions in time. So we can actually start to identify a return on investment, which I think is really the way to be thinking about this going forward. And we can talk about electrification of fleets, which won a selection by the White House. So congratulations to you, David, for their EV acceleration challenge. So we're super proud of that. But that's just one form of green expenditures and CapEx. There are so many more. In the real estate space, upgrades of appliances or the installation of solar panels. And when you combine that sort of analysis, you can really start to quantify how these initiatives benefit your company. And I think what's really exciting is many companies have many sustainability initiatives and if you do have a goal in the end of reducing greenhouse gas emissions at your company, there are multiple things that you can do. And by doing this sort of green CapEx analysis, you can actually determine whether or not you know, maybe two out of the three that you wanted to do are profitable and one doesn't quite break even. Maybe it's still justification to do all three because collectively they make economic sense. So I think that's really amazing because it's a good way to drive economic value creation. But you're also amplifying the impact of your work. You know, the other part of the puzzle that you did not allude to at the end of all of that analysis, we have the capital to bring to the table, and we've innovated. You want to talk a little bit about, yeah entirely, what we have available to be able to finance fleet electrification or whatever else? 

>> Szmigielski:
Yeah, we've innovated an entire toolkit of products that help serve customers where they are at in their sustainability journey, the types of investments that are right for them at that juncture, as well as the type of tenor and instrumentation that is required for each individual instrument. So in the case of fleet electrification, we have green syndicated and bilateral lease and loan solutions through Wells Fargo equipment finance, which is a really exciting opportunity for our clients not only to address their fleet electrification, but also communicate to their lenders and investors the positive work they're doing from a financial and economic perspective, from a social perspective, and certainly from an environmental perspective. And I think sustainability ultimately as it relates to integration into the financial markets, really operates quite a bit like a nutrition facts label. 

>> Piché:
Right? 

>> Szmigielski:
So it's a little bit like, you know, what are those economic or financial gains, maybe the calories, but also for certain stakeholders or certain consumers. If you look at a nutrition facts label, there are other things that are important than just the calories. And what we're trying to achieve is a multilayer of materiality or benefit that satisfies not only those seeking a financial or calorie return, but also the supplements and the vitamins as they require them. 

>> Piché:
Yeah, that's a really good analogy because the other thing that we are seeing is that sustainability is not a one size fits all. Not every company will be adopting the exact same approaches. And so when you create these multifaceted views on sustainability strategies for companies, those companies and their stakeholders can decide whether they want to prioritize water over GHG emissions much like a consumer might prioritize you know, iron over calcium. It's, you know everybody is going to be a little bit different. So I think it's really great. And it, it really has led to innovation, which you've just talked about. We have a slew of new financing solutions that never existed before. We have new abilities to advise our clients as they look at strategic opportunities. And all of it is about value creation now. Maybe the final concept that we could bring up is that of double materiality. It’s something we hear a lot about. Double materiality can have several meanings to different stakeholders as you know. Can you give me your take, David, on what double materiality means, or the double bottom line, not in the specific context of financial and risk disclosure, which has very unique considerations, but in the broader context of what it means to companies’ business strategies and the real economy. 

>> Szmigielski:
Double materiality ultimately comes down to an idea that the most successful sustainability strategies, those that have both financial economic benefits as well as environmental and social benefits that are quantifiable, and those are the ones that resonate the most with stakeholders certainly, and have the greatest impact in both of those regards. You can see this most manifest in the real estate space, of course, which is that the most energy efficient buildings or buildings with upgrades and retrofits into their performance, immediately materialize in financial savings and gains reduction of power, electricity bill, etc., but also benefits to those that occupy those buildings and certainly also the emissions reductions associated with those investments. And so we are seeing clients double down on double materiality and bring very innovative concepts to market that grow with them. We have a structure for clients called Sustainability Investment Linked Loan or Hybrid Supplement, as we call it, that essentially allow our clients to utilize the facility as they make these investment decisions over time rather than pre-planning what that aggregate investment is at time of close, allowing them to drawdown and repay a drawdown and repay. And I know that's one that you're excited about. And many of the innovations in this space maybe welcome some of your input around that as well. 

>> Piché:
Yeah. And I think what you're describing is the sophistication of this work as it develops. A few years ago, all we were talking about were green bonds and that's all here was. And now we are really elevating the dialog into these really substantive strategic topics. And I think that this is where the direction of travel is going. We have to be doubling down on double materiality. As you just said, and. I think our work will follow that. I think our clients are going to be doing the same. I'm really excited about how sustainability has become value creating in the last few years, and I'm really excited about Wells Fargo's role in supporting our clients as they go down some of their own strategic journeys around sustainability. I really look forward to coming back in the future and telling you more about how the space is developing and how Wells Fargo is supporting clients. It's great to be here with you, David, and thank you for joining us. 

>> Szmigielski:
Always a pleasure, Genevieve. Thanks for having me. 

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